I Have a Dilemma
Posted by Kaleidoscope on December 12, 2005
Written by: Lisa
I have a dilemma that I just can’t seem to work out. I hope you all can give me your opinions. The answer seems completely logical (and I believe without bias) to me but I know there must be a deeper answer I am missing.
The insurgents seem to favor attacking the Iraqi people: the police, the military, and MANY innocent bystanders and blaming the Americans. And many agree with them. However, it seems to me the ones who should be blamed are the ones doing the harm! If we did pull out immediately, would that stop the insurgency? Or would they simply redirect their blame to religious differences (or some other excuse) and keep it up because they feel they can?
Perhaps I sound narrow-minded but that is my reason for seeking your opinions. I want to better understand!
What are your opinions?
© COPYRIGHT LISA 2005
Temetwir said
hi Lisa,
my humble opinion would be that since the iraqi police/military are “working with” the US, then that would make them an easier target
but then again, the US has lost many soldiers since the war to such attacks.. so they’re not untouchable either
i would use your terming of “insurgents”, but since that would entail that the US is in fact “in authority”, i would rather resort to using “they” to refer to the .. terrorists (?)
we have to remember that “they” are opposing the US’ presence because to them the US represents all that is immoral and whatever-BS-they-come-up-with .. plus the fact that they just want Iraq to be “free from the infidels”
now.. being able to ‘reach’ the innocent, and the military and the Iraqi people resulting in multiple killings daily would mean that the US is not really doing its “job” it said it would do, i.e. offer security to the Iraqi people until they can stand on their own
so they prove that by the bombings, the kidnappings, and all the other sick stuff we witness happening
is it working? are they reaching for the world and showing/proving their point, that the US isn’t doing its job?
YES
the war opposition in the US (i’m sorry i’m not that competent with the whole democratic/republican/liberal division of political stance in the states) is increasing .. and to me, a non-American, it breaks my heart that these soldiers are dying worlds apart from their families .. and for what?
if the US pulls out immediately, there will be two extreme scenarios .. which since i am not a specialist on the matter would rather not get into
but my point is, the blame is on the US since they seem to can not stop what is happening, when in fact they have set out their mission to protect the people of iraq and all that political nonesense
the way i see it, both the iraqi people and the US population are in a lose-lose situation ..
zinzinq8 said
Hi Lisa, I’m sorry you’re so upset about this. As a Kuwaiti student living in the States, I change the channel whenever I see a soldier’s mother crying or a soldier’s young wife talking about her dead husban and her kids. In answer to your question, my own opinion is that if the US pulls out now there will be a civil war which would have gigantic negative ripple effects on the whole region. Such effects would not only harm Iraq, but will also harm American allies in the region as well as American interests. By the same token, I feel America has handled its PR in the Middle East in a clumsy and inapporopriate manner. Frankly it could do SO much better for its image by upping its efforts in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict for example.
As a side note, I appreciate that you’re seeking the opinion of Middle Easterners to get a broader view. It’s an open-minded step that I would honestly wish more Americans would pay heed to.
McArabian said
Pulling out of Iraq will not stop the insurgents – keep in mind that the insurgents are made up of non-Iraqi’s as well. It’s not about fighting Americans, it’s about gaining control.
Temetwir is right on the money on two things: The PR for the war was horrific and gave out false information almost every step of the way. And as long as the American military has any authorative power in Iraq, people that have even the most shallow relationship with the them will be targets.
Iraq is on the brink of a civil war, the presence of a powerful military force is probably the only thing that’s keeping it (barely) together.
Should America pull out? I don’t know, that’s for the American’s to decide. War situations have never been black and white, and they never will be.
Qatar Cat said
How is it for the Americans to decide whether to pull out of Iraq or not? Iraq has no say in the matter? Well yeah we KNOW that it’s up to Americans, and not Iraqis, to decide, but is it right? It probably sounds bad, but I think a country deserves a ruler it has. If Iraqi people were happy with Saddam (and many were!) – then Saddam it is. If not – it was up to Iraqi people to remove him.
And as for the main question – I think the “insur/rorists”, are to blame for any loss of innocent life. Blame USA for the crimes it commits, but blame the insur/rorists for the lives they take.
Lisa said
Thank you for responding so quickly!
I agree that there have been mistakes made and while America does not seem to be succeeding where the (I’m sorry but I just don’t what else to call them) insurgents are concerned, it’s not for lack of our trying.
IMHO, the problem is that we are ill-trained to fight guerilla style warfare. That much seems obvious. Yet, if Iraqi people truly want them caught, they must know something or someone to turn in and help bring down the network.
Maybe I am naive but I believe we are only trying to help. I personally believe Iraq should have full say in whether we are here or not. Iraq does deserve to rule itself. And it is working towards that goal. But, Qatar Cat, were the majority of the people really happy under Saddam? If so, we should have stayed out. But if the oppression we saw in America was truly happening, perhaps they did need our help in bringing him down…
Please, everyone… continue! This is good!
Mushmushi said
The “insurgents” is a diplomatic term for murderous, religious, fanatic cults. Leaving Iraq to them will jeopardize Iraqi stability for a long time to come. It would be a new Baath-like party, only the Baath were secular and these murderers are religious fanatics. It will also lead to an outright war between the Iraqi Sunni and Iraqi Shia, because Iran will see this as the perfect opportunity to further expand its influence in Iraq by arming Shia fanatics, under the pretense of protecting their fellow Shia brothers and sisters.
A democratic SECULAR Iraq is the only solution, Lisa. The US cannot leave in the midst of all this mess. It will leave the Gulf region, Kuwait included, compromised to a terrorist hotbed in Iraq and it may create a flow of fanatic ideas (and God forbid, weaponry) from Iran to some fanatics in the Gulf.
I know what you Americans are doing is brave and hard and God bless you for it, but please, hang in there!
I also second ZinZinQ8’s opinion on a strong American stance with the Palestinians in the Arab-Israeli conflict, so that it may gain more supporters from the Arab world and revamp its image in the region.
Oh and Qatar Cat, your comments “If Iraqi people were happy with Saddam (and many were!) – then Saddam it is. If not – it was up to Iraqi people to remove him” clearly shows how ill-informed you are about the state of Iraq under that bastard Saddam. I will refer you to the book The Republic of Fear by Kanan Makiya.
Makiya is an Iraqi man who escaped Saddam’s tyranny and lived to tell his story. The state of Iraq is sad now, but there is hope for improvement. Under Saddam, there was no hope; only perpetual misery.
Temetwir said
I think a couple of people’s assumption that a civil war will break once the US pull out is a bit ambitious.
Iraq has a very complex social make-up, and it simply cannot be divided into 3 (Shi’ites, Sunis, Kurds) so to expect a civil war. Even if it were “arabs vs kurds”, it still is – to me at least – very unrealistic.
Anyway, Lisa it’s not so much as you think you are naive, but the thing is: can we really REALLY be expected to believe that the US has paid the price dearly with lives of their men and women; financially, the cost is ridiculous; and also important, the US is risking (if not lost already) the way the world perceive it..
all that, and one expects to believe whoever-it-is-who-claims that the US presence is merely to secure Iraq for its people + spread democracy in the middle east?
So, Qatar Cat, even if the Iraqis “voted” for the US to leave right now at this second, of course the US won’t. And why should they?
I’m sure Mrs Rice and Mr Powell would tell you that their adminstration did not push for the invasion/war just so everyone can sleep better at night.
With no WMDs, we know Iraq wasn’t the threat it was said to be. And with no link for the Ba’ath regime with the terrorist attacks on WTC and Pentagon; one is made certain that the US didn’t go there for “payback” and its own security. They had an all-too-well other bunch of reasons.
Qatar Cat said
Temetwir:
Too true and that’s why I hate the whole thing. I remember watching news in disbelief, watching these poor uneducated and politically unaware people die in scores and the world’s superpower trying to justify it as “protection measure”!
a3sab said
Mushmushi you took the words right out of my mouth.
One more point: the insurgents are not just targeting iraqi civilians they (al-zarqawi’s network) have pledged to wipe out the entire shiite sect. So it will turn into a civil war between shiites and sunnis. in fact the civil war is right there in front of us. it has already begun a long time ago. Iraqis killing iraqis sunni’s or baathi’s killing shiites what else can you call that but a civil war. If the US pulls out now hell will break lose all over the region and Kuwait will be the first to suffer.
The ONLY way to uproot the terrorists (and I insist on calling them just that) both in Iraq and everywhere else is to settle the Arab-Israeli conflict once and for all objectively and fairly. That means giving the palestinians jerusalem and the right of return for their refugees. plus demolishing the segregation or what Israel calls the “security” wall, which I might add was deamed illegal by the international tribunal.
That is the only solution.
temetwir said
a3sab again i disagree on the civil war, but ur right on with the mention of the conflict with israel
what people need to know, but are not being provided with from media, is that all this terrorism and all this radical nonsense is the wrong means of addressing the US support of Israel as ‘payback’ .. and nothing else
of course, that’s just so stupid way more than it’s wrong.. but it is a neglected fact that media turns a blind eye to
btw, what did u make of the iranian president’s call for giving the israelis land in europe and settling this once and for all?
finally, although i’m not too supportive of him, i gotta he say that guy knows what’s up.. i think his point was even further proven when there was no response from anyone
a3sab said
Teme, I think he’s just too radical and unrealistic as much as we want that to happen but its just not realistic. he is just creating more hatred against iran. He talks as a rebel not as a political leader. i really dislike his ways. I know we’re moving away from the main topic but its all related. My solution for the Arab-Israeli conflict is to turn jerusalem into an international capital governed by the UN.
temetwir said
a3sab
no matter how u look at it, i dont think u can deny that he (Najaad) speaks the truth
if, in 1940 the world was the same as it is in 2005, it was decided that the jews be gathered from europe and be squeezed into Palestine.. i wonder how radical, or unrealistic that would be
i just commend him for speaking every .. single .. muslim’s .. or .. “peace maker’s” .. mind and just coming out with what REALLY is the problem
turning jerusalem into an international captial governed by the UN is even MORE unrealistic .. at least with Najaad’s call (i doubt he actually believes in it), u get to piss of the Zionists the most .. with turning jerusalm into a UN-governed city (hypothetically ofcourse) will piss off e v e r y o n e .. and i do mean everyone in the broad sense
and that includes the soldiers which the UN will have to deploy from various countries to “govern” it
temetwir said
oooh forgot to mention this:
THERE IS NO DEMOCRACY IN OUR TIME. LET’S ALL BE MATURE ABOUT IT, RECOGNIZE THE FACTS, AND GET ON WITH OUR LIVES. THERE IS NO DEMOCRACY IN OUR TIME.
chairz !
Lisa said
I have to agree with Temetwir to a point… I don’t believe there is a fair democracy any more. I mean, democracy means everyone having a voice. But even if “The Voice” doesn’t want the war, the leaders still get to decide, in spite of the people’s choice.
Also, many, many Americans feel that we should let the world run itself and only interfere when asked. This imperialistic view that everyone should have a government like ours is arrogant. It’s not for everyone.
Still, how does one idly stand by when horrendous atrocities are committed in the guise of religious righteousness?
One thing I have learned is there is no right answer. Any decision made in world politics will have dire consequences.
temetwir said
Lisa that is a very smart observation you make of world politics.. one that strikes true every single time, yet it’s as if people either:
- don’t know what happened in every single time
- or perhaps they do know but act all impartial
not sure which is the worst, but there is a proverb in Arabic.. it roughly translates to “if you did know, then that’s a problem .. if you didn’t? then that’s an even bigger problem!
as for the guise of religious righteousness, i think the correct expression would be ‘extreme deviancy from religion’ .. i’ve always used this example and i’ll use it again: the spanish inquisitions
Jewaira said
Lisa
Although there are many, many people, including Iraqis, who are happy with the changes in Iraq, there are still many more who have very deep feelings of hatred towards American presence in the region and they view it as imperialist interference. For these people, nothing is too valuable or precious to sacrifice in their fight to oust the foreigners. In addition, there is also an agenda, a religious/political agenda which the insurgents/terrorists are following to attain their goals.
Iraq has (or used to have) an abundance of natural resources and a large population. Sadly, the Iraqi people and their governments have worked steadily to destroy those resources. And the educated elite, have fled the country, leaving less fortunate Iraqis to wallow in the quagmire.
As for the Palestinians, sometimes I daydream about this scenario: Most Palestinian families have large families and many children. Instead of raising their children to hate and become suicide bombers/martyrs, why not raise them to become educated professionals, hardworking indispensible people.
If the day comes when there is a great majority of educated professional Palestinians, that is when they pose the greatest threat to Israel’s security.
temetwir said
Jewaira
sure, tell you what
let us rewind to 1990, get Sadam back in control and repeat what he did by invading kuwait
meanwhile, let all the kuwaitis fight for 2 weeks, plead for the UN/the world to do something .. and then if nothing happens – which we’re supposing it won’t – let us all just give in and go pursue our education so we can come back to kuwait after there really isn’t anything left of it to ‘claim it back’
all the while, let us condemn what Il Mogawama will do in killing iraqis and trying to get kuwait back
Lisa said
Thank you everyone for your insight. I appreciate your willingness to share your beliefs with me and I feel I have learned quite a bit. I still firmly believe that we (Americans or otherwise!) should not impose or force our personal/political/ideological/philosophical/relgious or any ideas upon others. However, I do think that sharing our beliefs and keeping an open to others beliefs can only help and not hinder progress.
Thank you again.
Sheba said
Hello Lisa,
I just discovered this site and i can’t stop reading and commenting..
1. The US has already made a decision to pull out of Iraq gradually, I think UN forces must replace the US forces in this process to maintain peace and to stop the country from becoming another terrorist breeding area.
2. Serious work on US foreign affairs image should start. Iraq is the new age Vietnam but its worse because we can all watch it live.
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